An influential business leader flouts segregation
Spaulding describes a flexible segregated society in the the Durham of the 1930s. White and black leaders met to discuss social change, even though they accomplished little. Spaulding himself, as his stature in the community grew, found that he was exempt from some of segregation's rules, such as discrimination in Pullman cars. Spaulding regrets that segregation artificially separated people who might otherwise have found common interests.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Asa T. Spaulding, April 14, 1979. Interview C-0013-2. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
- WALTER WEARE:
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Yes. So the evidences of segregation would have been in the schools. You
went to an all-black school.
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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And I didn't recognize, or it just never occurred to me that
we had the black school there. It was a community school. It was located
in the community for the people. And it just happened that all of them
were black. So, you see, there wasn't anything to cause me to
think that this is a segregated school. It was a community school. Just
like you talk about neighborhood schools? And the people in the
neighborhood attended the school.
- WALTER WEARE:
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And the church?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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And the church. Now, as to whether or not there was feeling. See, kids,
or the younger people, they don't see that or recognize it
unless their parents drill it into them. My parents had no reason to
drill this into us, or to call it to our attention, because we
socialized and ate together. What is more intimate amongst blacks and
whites than to sit down and eat together? It's taken us a
long time, even in later life here, in the cities. When I came to
Durham, I helped open the hotel here for blacks and whites to sit down
together before the public accommodations proceedings were made.
- WALTER WEARE:
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This was in the fifties?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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Yes. As a matter of fact, when I came back from Michigan in 1933, and
shortly thereafter—I don't remember what the year
was, or whether this textile riot in Gastonia happened.
- WALTER WEARE:
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1929.
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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Well, this was while I was away in school, at NYU. But I knew about it,
and the tensions that rose and what happened. And after I came back to
Durham—I don't recall whether it was a tobacco
factory or a textile plant—they had this strike. And where
the strike breakers were brought in.
- WALTER WEARE:
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You're speaking of Durham?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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In Durham. And the situation was very tense.
- WALTER WEARE:
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The strike breakers were black or white?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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Well, if it was the textile industry, they were all white. And if it was
the tobacco industry it was mixed, black and white. But I remember that
I was very much concerned about it. While I was away in school, I would
write articles for the Carolina Times.
- WALTER WEARE:
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This was the black newspaper?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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That's right. Periodically something would strike me and I
would write an article on it, dealing with it. So when I came
back—after I finished and came back here—I started
writing an article occasionally on something that was of interest, that
had happened in the community and I had a reaction to. I'd
write an article and send it as a letter to the editor. And it would be
published. And I remember while this strike was going on, I think I made
reference to what had happened in Gastonia, and whether or not we wanted
it to happen in Durham, and that I thought that the leadership should
try to take a stand in trying to bring about a more favorable climate,
to settle it without resorting to violence. And I remember one of the
letters called for community unity, to get it
together. And it attracted a lot of attention. There were comments on
it. So much so, that I took it upon myself to go to some of the leaders
in the community. I went to a member of the city council, one of the
outstanding white leaders. And I went to the editor of the local paper.
I sat down and talked with him along the same lines. And I tried to get
them to take the leadership in forming a committee. It didn't
matter with me whether it was a white committee or an interracial
committee. But I thought that there ought to be a committee of the
leaders to get together to discuss situations that were developing in
Durham, and to provide leadership for the community. And I
won't call names because all of them are still living, and
holding responsible positions, and well respected. And since I was
talking with them privately, trying to get them to project leadership,
they all agreed with me that something needed to be done. But no one was
willing to assume the responsibility of calling the people together.
They were afraid to be rebuffed.
- WALTER WEARE:
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Do you think that was a genuine feeling, or do you think they were using
that?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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Well, they all agreed that it was not good for the community, what was
happening, and problems that were coming up. And I took the position
that if everybody is pulling together, it becomes easier for all, and
progress can be made. Whereas, if you have a divided community and
different ones are pulling in different directions, they offset each
other, so, therefore, we stalemate. They bought my argument. But they
were not motivated, whatever the reasons. And I won't try to
read their minds. But many of them said, "I just
don't know whether I could get any followship."
There could be something to that. Because, you know, when
you're staking out new ground, you can be left alone. And
unless you can get some followship, you may lose some friends that you
had before.
- WALTER WEARE:
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Were they talking about other leaders or just about the white masses in
general?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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No, we were talking about leaders. Because they were holding responsible
positions in some of the businesses here, as well as public office and
the publishing business.
- WALTER WEARE:
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White and black leaders could apparently sit down and talk, but you
couldn't get much further than that?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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That's right. And then I think, as I began to gain stature,
because of my being actuary of North Carolina Mutual—because,
you see, the company has always been downtown from its very beginning.
It's the only city that I knew of that you could go in
anywhere, and find a leading black business in the downtown, in the
heart of the town. Because, the post office was just one-half block west
of us; Main Street was one block south; and the leading bank was just
right around the corner; and the courthouse was probably just a little
over two, two-and-a-half blocks southeast. As a matter of fact, the
hotel was just one-half block west.
- WALTER WEARE:
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But there were certain things in that area that you couldn't
do.
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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But at the same time there were a lot of things we could do. You know,
the dollar makes a difference. You take the stores. I remember shortly
after I came back—the leading stores, the top
stores—a black woman could go in there and buy a dress, but
she couldn't try it on. She could have an account. I mean if
they felt it was good credit. But they would address their bills to them
by their first names. And one of the first confrontations I had was with
the leading women's wear store. This was after I got married.
I married in 1933. And my wife opened an account there. And I remember
the first bill that they sent to her. It was sent to me. A.T. Spaulding.
I sent it back and told them that evidently this was meant
for Mrs. A.T. Spaulding, because I hadn't made
any purchases there. And if, and when, they sent it to Mrs. A.T.
Spaulding, the bill would be paid. And they did it. And then others
began to take that position. And they changed their practise. And then
when that company did, others fell in line.
- WALTER WEARE:
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Were there practises then that informally kind of fell away for people of
your stature?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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They made a difference. You take, for instance, the Pullman
accommodations out of Durham. Blacks couldn't get Pullman
accomodations in the South at that time. But the top officers of North
Carolina Mutual could. I remember when I got ready to go to New York
University in 1927. I went down to the ticket office to get Pullman
accommodations. And the ticket agent who had been selling Pullman
accommodations to C.C. Spaulding, and Dr. Shepard here at the college,
Mr. Ferguson. He was the ticket agent. He's still living. Way
up in age though. And he sold me Pullman, sold me a berth. And then his
successor, Mr. Bobbitt, same thing. From that time on I was always able
to get it. And I remember when I went on the train that night. It left
here at seven o'clock, or five o'clock.
I've forgotten which. But anyway, when I went on the Pullman
car, before entering the car, I heard conversations, with the passengers
on there. When I walked in through that door, it got so silent. I went
on to my seat and sat down. And it was some time before somebody started
talking with his seat-mate, or the person across the aisle. I paid no
attention to it; I knew I had my seat and I was going to keep it
[Laughter] ; I was going to bed that night
when the time came. And that's what I did.
- WALTER WEARE:
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So there was no overt action?
- ASA T. SPAULDING:
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No overt action, just everybody ignoring me. And later it got to the
place where conversations would start between the passengers and me. And
especially after I became actuary of North Carolina Mutual. So
I've seen these changes take place.
And, you know, people are still afraid of anything that's
strange. If you don't know about it, you're
uncertain, you know, and you just don't know how. And I think
that's one of the curses of segregation and discrimination.
It prevents people from coming to know each other. And I have found when
people come together, they find a man is a man is a man is a man. As
Gertrude Stein would say. Or a woman is a woman. And that the color of
the skin has nothing to do with your ideals. You have some black grand
rascals, and you have some white grand rascals, or scoundrels. And you
have people of high ideals from all races. And the only way you can
know, is by actual contact and conversation with the person. Just like I
told you about those classmates of mine, that I had in Michigan. And
once we came to know each other, we became fast friends. And I have
found it as I have travelled around the world, or across this country.
There isn't a time, hardly, that I get on a plane today that
I don't either sit down beside someone that I
don't know, or someone I don't know sits down
beside me. And it's only a few minutes before a conversation
starts. And when it does, both of us are sorry when we get to our
destination. Because, fortunately—and I hope this
doesn't sound that I'm bragging; it's
not that, but to make a point. When a person finds that
you're conversant on the things that are of interest, that
you have ideas too, and you can back it up with some solid information
and with experiences, whether it's on local issues or
national issues or international issues, that you can hold an
intelligent conversation with him. And you just get started in a
conversation, one thing goes on to another, just like our interviews
here. And you find that everybody has experiences—there
isn't a person who doesn't have some
experiences—different from the experiences of somebody else.
That's the way we broaden our experiences. I remember one of
the managers of our Philadelphia district years
ago made this statement: When two people come together, each one may
come with one idea. If they exchange those ideas with each other, when
they go back, both are richer. Because each came with only one idea,
which was his own. When they separate, they go away with two
ideas—the one he brought and the one the other person
brought. Then he has some comparisons that he can make.