Determination to improve her community
The death of a boy, killed by a car at a poorly designed intersection, motivated Turner's involvement in city politics, she recalls. Her interest in the case led her to crusade against drug use and to intervene in fights. She tells a number of stories about violent incidents in Durham, illustrating a city likely wrestling with unemployment and crime and dramatizing her own determination to improve the lives of others.
Citing this Excerpt
Oral History Interview with Josephine Turner, June 7, 1976. Interview H-0235-2. Southern Oral History Program Collection (#4007) in the Southern Oral History Program Collection, Southern Historical Collection, Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
Full Text of the Excerpt
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
Was that like a real election that happens with the East End
Community?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
Well yes, with the people in the community. Well, you see,
I got involved when Mr. Holman was the president. Well, I
just got out and started doing things, you know. A lot of them talked;
we've got a lot of folks in the community who are talking,
but action, no. Well, I'll tell you when I first got really
bogged down, when this kid got killed right here on the corner. We have
a light here now; had a lawsuit about it. That was about five or six
years ago. And I went up to City Council then with the mother of the
child. They was talking about putting sidewalks way down there
, and I told them they needed to put the sidewalks
on Allston Avenue by this and we needed a light.
These are the things that really kind of upset me, and that's
when I started out. And I started going and asking for things.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
That was about six years ago?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
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Seven years ago.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
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It was that incident that sort of sparked your activity?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
Yes, this really got me upset, because I knew this boy's
mother, the grandmother and all. And I knew they were poor people and
wasn't able to do…
- KAREN SINDELAR:
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He was killed by a car, is that it?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
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Yes. The lady didn't mean to do it. The child panicked and ran
in front of her, and she hit her gas instead of the brakes and knocked
him from that corner up in that driveway there. And it was a pitiful
situation. The lady was very disturbed; she was at the funeral home and
sent him a beautiful wreath and she baked them gifts. But the idea of
the thing was no light there, no sidewalks, no nothing. So the girl
forgave her. She looked at it at the human side as to what happened,
because it could have happened to anybody. But it was the neglect of the
city that it happened, you know, by no
sidewalks. So it's little incidents like this that makes you
sad. And I begged for a light up here, because somebody's
going to be killed up there on the corner of Darwin and Elizabeth. But
you can't tell them that, you know. So these are the things
that really upsets me. But by being a black woman I believe they hear me
more, you know. One thing, when I ask the people to go with me,
they'll go. And I get the church bus, and we'll
go.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
You use the church bus?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
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Oh yes, they let me have the bus any time I need it.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
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And what do you do, take people who are going to tell them with you?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
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To go to city hall with me, you know.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
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With you?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
So these are the things that just gets me upset. They get at me now. I
haven't drunk anything since '63; I
don't drink. I'm not saying I'm better
than anybody that do drink, don't get me wrong; but I do know
that stuff keeps you fog-minded. You don't know what
you're doing. And what hurts me is the young girls out here
on this dope. And I know the young man that killed the baby. You see,
they're not doing the job down there with the dope-pushers,
and I know it because they're getting at the ones that are
smoking it. They need to get the pushers; this is where it's
at.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
Do you think they're doing it on purpose, not getting the
pushers?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
I have told them, and they say I'm crazy. It's
somebody downtown that's the head person of it; yes, I feel
that. Because I know for myself they have gotten them off the street,
and the next time in thirty minutes
they're back out there, you know. So a person that would be a
tattletale… They wanted my son to be a tattletale [a drug
informer]. And I told them no, he's not going to be no
tattletale and put his life on the line when they pick them up for five
minutes and then are back out in ten minutes. He'd be just
like that couple that was killed out there on the road.
They'll never find out who killed them, you know, and this is
what would happen to him. I told them no. And the man told me, he said,
"Well, we're going to put him in jail." I
said, "Well, you take out your warrant on him, but you have
your warrant right when you take it out.
He's not going to be a stool pigeon, you know." I
said, "You done got one black one killed rushing in on stuff
like that. Now what are you trying to do, get my son killed?"
And when he said he didn't like my attitude I told him I
don't care. I don't like his attitude
neither—you know, trying to get my child killed for a thing
like that. So I feel like somebody downtown is the head of it, and they
know I'm almost close to who it is. And this is why my son is
scared for me, 'cause he says, "Momma, shut up; you
talk too much." I said, "No. It's not
right." If you could come out here one weekend, especially
about the first of the month, and see some of these girls fourteen,
fifteen years old, and just look at them, and some of the young boys
twelve, thirteen, some of them not fourteen years old, and just see how
they are.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
You said dope. You mean marijuana, or do you mean harder stuff than
marijuana?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
I don't know what they're on, honey, but I know
they're on something: something that'll make them
stand up and go to sleep when they're talking, and do wild
things. I've seen a boy standing at a police officer and just
go straight up to him and just scream at the top of his
voice. And people naturally are scared of them, you know.
And I've tried to talk to them and calm them down
'til they get out of there. And I've had people
come in there and draw guns on one another and all this. This is one
thing I thank God for too: they have a lot of respect for me over here,
the people that know me. I try to live what I talk to them about. And
they could be fighting… I went out there and stopped a lot of
fights. When the police got there I'd done stopped the fight,
you know.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
How do you do that?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
I just go out there and tell them to behave theirself. And I have pulled
them away from one another.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
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And they mind you?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
Yes. When they'd be fighting, if I grab one and I push one off
of the other they won't hit me. I went out there and one had
a gun one night, and I took the gun away from him. He was drinking, and
everybody else was just running. I said, "Give me the
gun." They all call me Mamma. He said, "Mamma Jo,
don't say that." I said, "Give me the
gun." And my son's there,
"You're going to get killed; you're crazy
running out there." But so far God has been good. They respects
me; and if I speak to them they can be out there cussing or whatever
they're doing, I can walk out there and speak to them. And
like one guy said, if I get killed he believed the young men in this
community would find whoever killed me. But I told him, if they would
kill me it wouldn't be any of the young people around here
that know me. It would be some stranger that don't know me.
You know, a lot of people are scared me working at night up there on
account of me handling money there. I said,
"Well, I'm not afraid."
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
"Well, I'm not afraid." That's
why a lot of those boys—see, they hang on that corner, and I
think this discourages a robber from coming in there where I am.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
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Because of the guys hanging around the corner?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
Yes, they'll be hanging right on the corner, and
they'd be out there smoking and drinking a little beer and
wine, you know. But I'll go out there and stop them if they
get loud. I'll go out there and say, "I'm
not going to have it." "All right, Mamma,"
and that's it.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
When they get too loud, just disturbing the neighborhood?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
Yes. You know how young people get loud, cussing sometimes.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
Do you have any incidents in your working at night?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
No.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
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Nothing?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
I mean, now sometimes they get to fighting or something like that. Now
I've had incidents when I wasn't there. They tell
me the week I went to Atlanta they was out there shooting. Well, that
never happens when I'm there, you know. And I had a man that
come in with a gun one night and said he was going to kill the man. I
said, "Now look; think. You've got a wife and five
children." I said, "Think before you do it."
He said, "Well, I ought to kill him anyhow." I said,
"Why?" Everybody else was running, and got on the
floor there. I said, "Now why do you want to kill the
man?" The man wasn't saying anything, you know. But
somebody'd say I was the biggest fool; he said, "I
wouldn't have stood there and talked to the man." I
said, "See, I've got God on my side.
I'm not scared of that man going to shoot
me." Now he could have shot me, but I haven't got
scared yet. You know, it's amazing. I haven't got
scared yet, and everybody's just running. And I just talked
to him as calm as I could. I said, "Now why do you want to kill
the man?" And he said the man had drawed a gun on him. I told
him, and he was just cussing and . He said,
"Excuse me, Mamma, but I'm going to kill this
boy." And I said, "Well look. You've got a
wife and five children." I said, "Think about them.
You kill him and you're not going to have your wife and five
children." "Look," he said,
"I'm going to listen to you." He went on
and got in his car and left.
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
Wow.
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
Then I told the other man, I said, "Now you go on
home." So these are the type things, you know…
They're there sitting up behind them desks telling me
what's happening out here. They can't do it.
You've got to get out here and get involved with these people
and know the heartaches and the sadness. And like I tell them, being
black and a minority, you know, I feel like in some of the issues I
could help them. I feel like in some of the things I could be an asset
to them. In the problem of housing: now, one old lady lives in a house
up there. If I'd pursue it they'd tear her house
down in a minute. Now where would the poor soul go? She don't
have anybody, nobody to go to, nobody to turn to. Oh, if I could take
you on a tour of the place. I carried the newspaper man and showed it to
him; I've carried the inspectors. I won't show
them a lot of the homes, because old folks ain't got no
money. And this is it: if I had the money, God knows I'd
build these houses and put them in it, you know. But what are you going
to do? And like I told them up there, I look at
them. Mr. Herndon is eighty-one years old. He's got all that
profit and all that money. Like I told them, I haven't seen a
Wells Fargo truck or a furniture truck yet going to a cemetery behind
nobody. They carried nothing with them. And you know, there's
so much they could do to help humanity if they would. Now Paul Geddy
died with all that money. If he had left me a little of it I could do so
much! [laughter]
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
True.
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
So much I see needs to be done. And the ones that got it, they
won't do it. What're you going to do?
- KAREN SINDELAR:
-
Where would you start if you really had more power?
- JOSEPHINE TURNER:
-
If I had more power I'd start with the housing, trying to get
some decent houses for these old folks to live in. Then recreation, to
get these young people off the corners. And I would try to program them,
their minds and their bodies, physically and mentally. I'd
try to get them in their churches, you know. I'm not saying
saints is in the church; no, the church is the hospital for the sick.
But there's so many things that… If I had the time
I could just get out and talk with the people. And that's why
I say I'm going to trust God and give up my job,
'cause I feel like there's a lot he wants me to
do, and I can't do it on the job. So if I was to come to you
for a meal, I will [laughter] .