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Transcript on deposit at The Southern Historical Collection, The Louis Round Wilson Library
Citation of this interview should be as follows:
“Interview I-0099, in
the Southern Oral History Program Collection #4007,
Southern Historical
Collection, The Wilson Library,
University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill”
David R. Hayworth's father started Hayworth Roll and Panel—"the first and oldest plywood company in North Carolina"—with his two brothers, creating what would become a nationally competitive office furniture company and a thriving family business. Hayworth's mother took over the High Point, North Carolina, company after her husband's death, eventually leaving control to her sons. In this interview, Hayworth recounts some of this family history, and chronicles some of the changes that have taken place in the furniture industry since the 1950s. These changes include the rise of major manufacturers who pushed out smaller companies with their ability to maintain dealerships around the country, as well as the advent of the open office system, the now familiar office layout that relies on partitions to separate workers. Hayworth Roll and Panel weathered these changes, and David R. Hayworth describes them, as well as the personalities who guided the company through difficult times. This interview will be of particular interest to researchers concerned with the intricacies of the furniture manufacturing industry.
David R. Hayworth describes the history and business model of his family business, Hayworth Roll and Panel Company.
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
This is an interview with David Hayworth. The interviewee is David Hayworth, I'm Dorothy Gay Darr. The tape number is 2.6.97-DH. This is for the Southern Oral History Program Furniture Series—we're going to be talking about the Hayworth family. Yesterday we talked about family background and I just had a couple of questions that came to mind. You said that your father started Hayworth Roll and Panel with his two brothers, and they had been out in Oklahoma. I was wondering, what were their names and what were they doing out in Oklahoma? Did you ever get that passed down in your family?
Their names were John Philip Hayworth and Daniel Sink Hayworth, the Sink being my paternal grandmother's maiden name as I mentioned in the previous taping. My grandfather, paternal grandfather, Joseph A. Hayworth—he and his wife married, had nine children and both lived to be—my grandfather died when he was eighty-four and my grandmother lived to be ninety, in her ninetieth year. My uncles John and Daniel were the older of the children. My father, Charles E. Hayworth, Sr. was the youngest of the nine children. John and Dan had gone to Oklahoma to, so to speak, seek their fortune. And my grandfather was running the farm and so they were not needed in that regard, and just why they picked Oklahoma I have no real knowledge except for the fact that I think at that point in time oil had been discovered in Oklahoma. They both bought property which, until 1996, the family still owned. But unfortunately, other than just having some veins of oil through the property for which we received a small amount of money, nothing of any great consequence. But over the years—after they died my father and then in turn my brothers and sisters, we inherited that property. But that was the reason they were out there. When my father decided to start the Hayworth Roll and Panel Company, and not having the financial means to do it alone, he enlisted their help in coming back because they had the funds to get the company started. And so that—I hope that answers your question.
How did they have the funds? Do you know? Did they just—
I think they had perhaps—no, I really can't answer that for sure, Dorothy, but I assume—they were out there for a pretty good little, maybe a couple of years or something like that. I think they had—particularly my Uncle John was quite an astute businessman, more so than my Uncle Dan—and I think he was sort of an entrepreneur and had made some successful ventures out there, and that was where the both of them had acquired some money. My grandfather Hayworth, who owned and managed the farm—as I mentioned the other day, the farm was over a thousand acres at one time and he was a very prosperous farmer, so they could have gotten some money from him. I don't know that; I really can't answer that question for absolute surety. But anyway, go ahead. I don't want to be too verbose.
No, no, please. That's what—please be as verbose as possible, because the more the better. But anything is better than nothing.
But you think about—and this would have been around the company—Hayworth roll and Panel Company was founded in 1905, so it had to be around 1900 when my Uncle John and my Uncle Dan went to Oklahoma. You know, that was like you or I, Dorothy, might go to Europe or wherever—the Far East—in those days.
Probably more like the moon.
Or the moon, yeah.
The Frontier!
But I do, just in that respect, I remember some years later, maybe in
the '20s, I think that would be fairly accurate—my Uncle John died in
1921 and he was never
It is because automobiles and roads were still—
Roads were just dreadful, and the farther west you got the worse they got. But anyway, that's all there is to that.
We talked about—
But it shows adventuresome spirit, you know. They weren't just content to sit at home and do nothing, you know. Anyway, that's all.
All right.
Who would you like to begin with?
Well, of course, if you just wanted to go chronologically, you
Could you talk a little bit about Katharine and her personality? How you remember her? I saw a picture of her as a young woman and she was beautiful.
Katharine, as I said, was born in 1912. She was a beautiful young lady
growing up in High Point, and a very popular member of the social set.
There were three young ladies who grew up in High Point, not all the
same age but more or less contemporaries. One was Alice Barbie, who is a
very old High Point family. The second was Mary Alice Tate, I believe
was her name; her father was Fred Tate who was a pioneer furniture
manufacturer in High Point. Then the third was my sister, Katharine
Hayworth. And they were supposed to be—it was always said and I've been
told by people many times over the years that they were supposed to be
the three most beautiful girls who ever grew up in High Point. I had
seen pictures of the—I did not know the Tate girl or the Barbie girl—but
I have seen pictures of them and in truth they were beautiful young
ladies, as was my
So she never worked outside the home?
She never worked outside the home. Before she was married,
And so she chose to go back to New York for the wedding, and that's probably because she worked there?
No, I think it was because the church was closed. The wedding would have been here but—a lot of friends here in High Point went up to the wedding. But, you know, I was too young to go. I was about eight years old, eight to be exact.
You knew Dave?
Oh yes. I knew him very well. He was wonderful. My mother was just crazy about him, and he loved mother too. He always said she was his second mother, and he could not have loved his own mother any more. They never had any—oh, I know what I was going to say; they did not have any children. I was going to mention that.
What was it like to be a salesman for Alma Desk? When he went out calling, who did he call on, for example? Did he call on retail stores?
Yeah. Office—at that point in time it was office furniture dealers.
Not the individual companies like later. You actually contacted them so—
Oh no, no, no.
In those days, it was strictly sold to the dealers, and the better dealer network you had throughout the United States—we had, you know, from the east coast to the west coast, and from that point in time we maintained warehouses in San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle.
This was in the '50s?
Uh-hmm. And we shipped carloads of furniture out to the warehouses for distribution in the western states. We did not have a warehouse in Dallas at that point in time—where Katharine and Dave lived—but we later did, some years later we did; not only a warehouse, but a showroom in Dallas. And then in later years we had a showroom in San Francisco and Los Angeles and Seattle. That was the only way you could compete in the west, was to have ready availability to furnish the needs of the office furniture dealers and their customers, the manufacturers. In those days if you had an order, you shipped it. I mean, if it's a big job and they needed furniture, it isn't like a household where a housewife orders a sofa and she waits six months for it; the office furniture business was totally different. When a building's being built and they need the furniture for their offices, it's got to be there on the day that office opens or before the day it opens or you can forget it. That's the way the office furniture business differs so radically from the household furniture manufacturers. And I think that's one reason that household furniture manufacturers, when they tried to go into the office furniture business they would without exception fail. And these were some big people too; big furniture manufacturers who tried this because they thought it was a supplement to their operation. But they didn't understand the principles. You think furniture is furniture and it works both ways; it does not, absolutely does not.
And these showrooms that you had were for the dealers to come by and look at your furniture?
Well, you see, at that time—you talk about the period of the '50s—that was not so important, the showrooms. It later became when your customer was the manufacturer and you would call on—like we had contracts with, for example, Merrill Lynch, Nations Bank, which was NCNB in those days—you know, big banks and, financial institutions. They were our big market. And if you were trying to sell Merrill Lynch and you wanted a national contract, they wanted to see your furniture. Well, they might come to High Point, but if they would just go to the showroom right there in New York which we always had in later years—we had a warehouse in the beginning and then added a showroom—but you could bring them right in. And if there was a special desk that they wanted, you could have that shipped up there so it was right there for them to examine to their heart's content, or shipped to their office for them to use until they made a decision. That's when the office furniture business was becoming more and more competitive. We still had a lock on the market in the '40s and '50s and '60s. We were the largest manufacturer of office furniture in the United States, but a lot of people began to see that it was a very money-making venture, and so that's when a lot of other manufacturers began to make office furniture. And it became more and more competitive.
So beginning in the '60s and '70s.
Well, more in the '70s, and then in the '80s it really got hot; late
'60s, '70s and '80s. When I said, make one exception—you know, there's
always exceptions to everything—but anyway, there was one manufacturer
of television cabinets and pianos which you will
Who were some of your other competitors that came up in the late '60s and '70s?
Well, a big competitor was Steelcase because—though they made metal
office furniture they later got into the wood office furniture,
because—see, Dorothy, what was developing was these national accounts.
And say, for example, you wanted to sell Merrill Lynch, just to pick a
name, which is national all over the country. Naturally the big volume
would be in all
Where was Steelcase based?
Grand Rapids.
Grand Rapids.
Uh-hmm.
There was another big name, more of a design-oriented company—Knoll
International; very big manufacturer of—very high style expensive wood
furniture. And into seating, too; Knoll Seating was expensive furniture,
and the market that we were sort of big in—that we were not really
competitive, you see what I mean? But like everybody else they saw the
need to go down, and we were seeing the need to come up so you could
give. . . The secret was to be able to offer a potential buyer a
complete package. And another thing that was happening, Dorothy, as
years were going along, and this is where Knoll Wood excelled; Knoll did
not have a strong dealer organization throughout the country like we
did. So because they didn't have that they chose to cultivate the design
market and get a designer to specify their furniture on the job. At
first that was not a real big factor but it became more and more, and
that's when everybody in the industry, including us, realized that to
get a big job you had to work with the specifier, designer—whatever you
choose to call him—to specify what was going to go on a big job. You
needed to cultivate him, explain why your product excelled "xyz's"
product. The office furniture dealer, he said, 'Well, you're talking
about 200,000 or 300,000 jobs'; the average office furniture dealer in
the United States is small. As it used to be said, they're strictly mom
and pop stores. Well, that's probably not so true today, but it
certainly was back in the '50s when—and they couldn't handle that
kind—they couldn't afford—they didn't have the finances, do you follow
me? So it had to be specified through the design community. And then, of
course, you sold the job direct. What you did, what we always did, you
sold—but, say the job was in Kansas City; well, we couldn't send a crew
out there and do all this installation once the job was manufactured and
shipped; that's where the local dealer came in for the installation, and
then got a
Just to continue on, do you think that the—you're saying that the way manufacturers started dealing with the large jobs was—large, nationwide companies like Merrill Lynch or growing concerns like NCNB, who's now Nations Bank.
Right.
The dealers were changing also, perhaps? Or did manufacturers lead the change with the dealers, do you think?
Well, yes, I think the manufacturers did, and I think the dealers
reluctantly rely on their ability to do a satisfactory installation. And
where they—which was, well, I guess what I'm trying to say is by doing
the installation successfully, to the satisfaction of the consumer, then
they more than likely were able to get their contract for office
supplies and all the printing needs and all that sort of thing. All
large office furniture dealers offered that service, and the little
small ones began to just disappear. And it was the bigger dealers who
could handle these installations and supply
How did you handle the design process? Did Alma, for example, hire designers or did you use them on a consulting basis?
We had both; we had both in-house designers and designers we would handle, I mean, excuse me, employ for more of the upper-end lines. As you know we made all price ranges, but as years went on our concentration was more and more toward the upper-end, particularly when we got into manufacturing the open plan office furniture, which was becoming a very hot item in the '70s and '80s. We had to hire professional designers to design a line of, a total, complete line for us of the open plan system.
Talk about that a little bit; what that—define it and tell me a
Well, construction costs like everything else were going up, and there
was—this concept of the open plan originated with an industrial designer
in Germany; this would have been sometime in the early to mid 70s, early
70s. And his last name was Werner, I believe, Von Werner. I could trace
that name, but—it's not right in my head. But anyway, he was the—he
developed the concept of the open plan system, and the theory behind it
is that you could install partitions so much less expensively than solid
walls. And from these partitions you could attach tops of the size that
was required; it wasn't, it didn't have, you know—it wasn't like it was
manufactured and this was what it was, you know. You could specify on a
job the size and also what the pedestal would contain. Obviously, a
person in the secretarial area needed one type of pedestal, an executive
would need another type, someone operating a computer would need another
type, so that gave a great deal of flexibility. And another key thing to
this concept was, okay, a year or two down the road you didn't need this
configuration any more. Say you had a room a hundred feet long by fifty
feet wide, just to give you an example, which was full of all of these
partitions and different hanging cabinets that all hung off these
partitions. You could have an "L" arrangement, if you follow me, or your
desktop and then a side top coming off; you could have a "U" arrangement
with what we call credenzas in the back with one pedestal, two
pedestals, or three all the way across, depending on the particular
requirements. In big companies, you know, they're always changing or
reconfiguring all that sort of thing; a lot of changing of employees,
you know—that was the thing that's a fact of life today. Well, right at
this point of time, from what I read and hear, employees are not doing
so much changing of their jobs—which is one reason that inflation stays
so low, because they fear of losing jobs. That wasn't true in the '80s,
as
It gave great flexibility.
It gave you all kinds of flexibilities; you could totally reconfigure a whole area and it wouldn't even resemble the way it started out.
And you could do it cheaper.
Oh, yeah. These panels were very sophisticated the way they were designed, because they had to support all of these attachments that you were going to hang on them, and had to be designed so that they would accept these cabinets or wall units, whatever they might be; they would hang so that there was no problem of stability. All these things—it was very sophisticated, but we realized that in order to be competitive in the market place that this was the coming thing. And the idea of closed offices and a desk like you traditionally think of—an office that was going by the board. And now today, even the most modest manufacturers—not manufacturers, but whoever they might be in business—has gone to this type of office furniture.
It's the norm now.
It's the norm rather than the exception, you're exactly right. So that's another major change that's taking place in the office furniture industry.
And Alma started dealing with this change in the early '70s?
They began to develop it and got it really going sometime between 1975 and 1980, so by 1980 we were ready to compete in the market place in the office plan system.
Were you leaders in this plan in the United States? You said it
I think we were one of the leaders. Knoll, for instance, had a system. Now, unlike—Steelcase had a big system. See, their's was all metal and so it depended—our market, I guess a big job—in other words, for the very lower echelon you might have metal office furniture partitions, but it moved on up to middle management; top management, always preferred wood over metal. It was, you know, a psychological thing that wood was more upper end and metal was more for common clerical—eliminate the word common, just the clerical help. You know what I mean. But all the major manufacturers were getting on the band wagon, so to speak, as we were. Some before us, some after us, but they were all smart enough to see the need and—let's see, your question was were you the leader? No, I think that would be—I don't think that would totally be accurate to say we were the leader; that's not true. There were other people in the office partition business—or open plan system, as it's called—before we were. But we were smart enough to see the growing popularity and the need for it, and that's the reason we had a very sophisticated system design for us to manufacture. And these panels were all postered and the consumer had a selection of various fabric and colors. Everything was coordinated, you know, with various woods; some were made out of walnut, oak—oak was very popular for an office plan. Walnut was the wood of choice almost throughout the office furniture industry. Wood office furniture industry. And the metal people were smart enough to see the growing requirement of wood, so that's the reason they got into the wood manufacturing wood business, also.
So walnut and oak were the two most popular ones. Did you use cherry at all?
Some, yeah. In fact, one of the last major lines that we designed—not cherry in the office plan, I'm talking strictly about just freestanding desks, credenzas—was a line of cherry designed by a noted designer in Chicago. At this point in time I was very heavily involved with this particular line, which I enjoyed thoroughly. And it was a very successful one. One of the first really big jobs we sold in this line was to Phillip Morris, headquarters in Richmond. You know, you need a really big job to get a new line going, and that was a really big one. They bought a lot of this open plan for areas, but for their executive offices they bought all this line of cherry. And it was beautiful, it really was.
I love it.
About the color of these walls. This is cherry; I'm sure you realized
that. All these panels—not this part—you know, all came from not
We're sitting in David's library and it is beautiful paneling all around. It's on all four walls; it was sort of Hayworth Roll and Panel that made this room.
That's right. Sure was.
Did you remember any of your other competitors in the '70s and '80s? As competition grew fierce there's one office supply, excuse me, office manufacturing concern called Haworth, too.
I might just comment on that. I was going to mention Haworth when we got
into Myrtle, because that's where they have a direct tie-in as you know.
But
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A]
[START OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
Right. Haworth, Inc. is located in Holland, Michigan. And as I said, their main product is metal office furniture; they were big into this office partition, as was Steelcase. And, I might add, that they had a patent, Haworth did, on a locking device to connect these office furniture partitions. That's very important—that they locked together and they locked just right. Apparently, at some point in time Steelcase copied this design, which subsequently Haworth filed a suit—a patent infringement— and this suit was in the court for a long time. The lower court ruled in favor of Steelcase, I mean in appellate court. Anyway, long story short, they went on to the highest court you can go for this particular kind of patent infringement and this—just within the last year they finally ruled in favor of Haworth, and Steelcase had to pay Haworth two hundred thirty million dollars to settle this claim; that is what the court awarded Haworth. So that's pretty big bananas, you know. But they said they had to be paid by December 31, 1996 and they sent them a check on Christmas Eve.
Don't companies have insurance for things like that?
You know, I don't know.
Probably not patent infringements.
You know, I've asked a question that I'm not prepared to answer
directly. We never had any insurance like that, but a big company like
Steelcase or Haworth might. I just don't know. But anyway, how
Haworth—they're sales are not as large as Steelcase, but they are just
right under them. They're that big. And they—when Steelcase decided to
get into the wood office furniture manufacturing business they chose to
start their own plant; built a building as opposed to buying a wood
office furniture manufacturer. And they had a great deal of difficulty.
Okay.
Now, as I said, Steelcase decided to get in the wood office furniture by starting their own wood office furniture manufacturing plant. When Haworth decided to get in the wood office furniture business they elected to buy a wood office furniture manufacturer, and Mr. Dick Haworth, who was president of the company at that time, called my brother Charles. We had already sold our companies at that point, but he—I remember Charles said he said, 'Well, you got anything else to sell?' Charles said, 'Well, yes, as a matter of fact.' That was Myrtle Desk Company, which was another wood office furniture manufacturing company we owned. So, long story short, Haworth bought Myrtle Desk Company.
What year was that?
That was in 1990 or '91. And they also bought—we had a wood office chair
manufacturing plant here in High Point, the name of which was Clarendon
Industries; they made office seating for both Alma Desk Company and
Myrtle Desk Company. It was, I might add, a very profitable operation.
When Haworth bought Myrtle they also bought Clarendon, and they have
subsequently shut down the operations here in High Point. Myrtle also.
We had a plant down in eastern part of the state which was a very state
of the art plant, and there was a good labor supply down there. The
labor supply, as I mentioned earlier, was very tight in High Point, and
that was the reason for locating the plant where there was a more
plentiful labor supply. That plant, it is my understanding, is still in
operation as a part of the Haworth, Inc. So the only thing they have in
High Point at this time is the Clarendon Industries, which makes all
their seating; wood office furniture
I'd like at some time—you don't have to do it right now—for you to go down the plants that you owned. Could you just do it for Myrtle then? Where was this plant in the eastern part of the state?
Well, I knew you were going to ask for that, and the name just, I don't know why—you know, every once in a while you just pull a blank.
Is it
It's near Wilmington. It's on the way, say about thirty miles west of Wilmington.
In a very small community, I imagine.
A very small community, but—
Well, it'll come back.
I want to say—anyway, go ahead. I don't think that's critical to our story, but nevertheless, I'm sorry I can't just recall the name. It slips my mind. This is seven years ago, you know. Time does march on. That's not so long. I'll think of it.
Plus you do have other interests; you've been travelling a lot and different things.
If—somebody said, "David, I think you're on every board in High Point," and I feel that way sometimes.
We better get on with these two later.
What were the plants of Myrtle Desk here in High Point? Where were they located?
Well, they were located very near Alma Desk Company's main number one plant. Oh, you know, Southern Railroad—most plants in the old days were built along the railroad, because that's the way you shipped your furniture. Nowadays, almost—well, I don't think anything is shipped by rail—office furniture, and probably not household, either. I can't directly speak to that, but many years ago we converted to trucks because it was so much quicker, faster. As I say, that's something that's so critical in the office furniture industry; you've got to have the furniture there when the customer needs it. If you don't, all hell breaks out. It's just that simple. That's a lesson to some people that they have a hard time learning, but it's so elementary. And if you just stop and think a minute, you can see how critical it is. You may not get your sofa when you want it, but that's not life or death. But boy, if your furniture isn't there and you've got fifty employees ready to get moved into their desks, church is out.
That could be a costly mistake.
That's right. A costly mistake. So we tried to always avoid that,
needless to say. And sometimes your own employees didn't realize how
critical that was. Mother had—many years ago I remember when she first
had to go down to Hayworth Roll and Panel Company to save that company
from bankruptcy—which would have happened; it was just a matter of time.
She realized when she got into things the mismanagement and the fact
that there was no business anyway in the Depression years. But she had
such a hard time convincing the people there how important it was to get
the plywood when the customer needed it, even though it was household.
You see, they had a cutting line that was a certain—say a bedroom suit
of furniture, for example. Well, they had to have the plywood, and they
have to have it on this day; not tomorrow or next week or Friday, right
now, today.
So, let's see, getting back to Myrtle, Myrtle had three manufacturing plants and three or four warehouses, you know.
Were they here in High Point?
Yeah, at that point in time they were all here in High Point. And I might add—
Clarendon was the fourth right?
Well, Clarendon was, I said, joint.
But their location, I mean, on the east.
Clarendon was—yeah, and it was—yeah, uh-hmm. What Myrtle Desk did [pause] some time in, I'd say, into the early '70s'—I think I'd be pretty accurate about that—they began manufacturing library furniture. And they were—Myrtle was very successful in its venture. At one point in time they were the largest manufacturer of library furniture in the United States; they practically had no competition, and they made everything in the world you could think of that would go in a library. You know, like all the card cases and all that sort of thing. Of course, like everything else somebody out there began to see how successful they were and began to get more and more competitive. Eventually it was not profitable, and they dropped it some time in the—I'd say late '70s or early '80s, because it had just gotten to the point that it was not profitable. But at one time it was like a money machine.
So like a decade, a golden era decade for Myrtle?
Uh-hmm. And I'd say, since it had been about mid-'60s at the latest when the really—
Went on maybe eighteen years.
Uh-hmm.
Who made that decision? Who saw that niche in the market, since you owned Myrtle—your family had owned Myrtle since the '20s?
Yeah, but we had managers down there, you see. You had to be careful,
Dorothy—rightly or wrongly, and I think that's debatable—the
companies—the two companies were never merged into one company, so
therefore my brother, Charles, who was president of both companies after
my mother retired—she was always president of Myrtle Desk Company and
Alma Desk Company and, well, Hayworth Roll and Panel Company. For a long
time, you know, she was president of the whole kit and caboodle and was
a major stockholder and all—well, not Hayworth Roll and Panel, but Alma
and Myrtle, because she gave—she let that stock to her children. But she
always kept a major block of shares of both of the desk companies, and I
think she was wise to do that. She was a smart businesswoman; she wasn't
going to give everything away. But anyway, we had a very good manager of
Myrtle Desk Company, whose name was Tom Pitts. His real expertise was,
he was a very good salesman and he knew how to handle customers and
everything. He was a salesman for the company at one point in time, and
then he later came on and was chosen to run the companies. And I think
it was his idea to start this manufacture of library furniture. He was
very successful, as I've already said—just hit the market at the right
time, in its infancy. And there were so many—back in the '50s and '60s
there were so many new libraries being built and that sort of thing all
over the country,
So it was in the '50s you started manufacturing for libraries?
It really was. I said '60s, but it really was the '50s. I just a little bit—slipped my mind as to how far it went back, but probably by the mid-'70s they were beginning to get out of it. Or maybe did actually get out of it rather, than the early '80s. So just moved it back to about the '50s, mid-'50s to about that period of time. But they made a lot of—and it was beautiful furniture too; they had these wonderful, long library tables that you see, you know. And, of course, a lot of—well, we made what you call director's tables for offices, you know. Every big company has a director's room and it was pretty much a custom operation. We had our standard, but we could make, you know, whatever the customer wanted; going back to that, 'What does the customer want?'
Myrtle Desk started by manufacturing rolltop desks, didn't they? Weren't they a leader in rolltop desks?
Oh, yeah.
And that's pretty much all they did initially, didn't they? Rolltop desks?
Exactly. You're exactly right. And, see, the difference—
And that was started by Henry Frazier, wasn't it?
Yes, it was.
Named it after his daughter Ira, I think it's Ira Myrtle Sinclair; she married a Sinclair.
Uh-hmm. That's right. You're exactly right. I hope that what
He lived at 407 West High Avenue.
Exactly. The house is still standing there.
Still standing.
A wonderful Victorian.
His daughter lived next door, but that is no longer standing. That's where the American Legion is.
Exactly.
And High Street used to extend right on down to Myrtle Desk Company, didn't it? Myrtle was—no, no that was Alma.
No, that was Alma. That's where it stopped. At the corner of Grimes; Grimes Street—that's where High stopped—and then, as you know, later it was closed off where you are.
Henry Frazier helped start Alma Desk also?
No, no.
Not Alma Desk but—
No, had nothing to do with Alma. If he did you're telling me something I don't know.
I think he was one of the three founders with
Well, I tried to find it the other day and, of course, it was Redding, and Captain Rankin—A.M. Ranking—and you say he was the third one?
I think he was.
Well, you—yeah, I wouldn't argue because you're the historian. I somehow—you know, that's what I was trying to find in one of those books the other day when you arrived, because it sort of—I don't know why. I guess because Captain Rankin's name is there, because I'm a good friend of his [pause]. . .
Son?
No, it would be his, I think his grandson. See, Alec Rankin—Alexander
Martin Rankin, Jr.—Captain Rankin was Alexander Martin Rankin I, I
guess, and then my friend, Sandy Rankin is Alexander Martin Rankin III.
So that's who I'm talking about, my contemporary, which I guess would be
his grandfather. I had a long conversation yesterday at the NationsBank
board meeting with Ed Pleasants, and he knows a lot about the history;
that's another name because see he married Tootsie Rankin. And he
doesn't remember—when Tootsie was born, her father was sixty years old
and she was the youngest of the children. There was a girl named Peggy,
who was the oldest; then came Alec Rankin, Jr. and then Blair Rankin,
and that no doubt—Mrs. Rankin may have been a Blair. I guess she was,
but anyway, one of the children's name was Blair who died—didn't live
very long; didn't live to be an adult, I don't think. And then the last
was Tootsie, who married Ed Pleasants. And he has, Dorothy—he was
telling me yesterday, he has this beautiful, old rolltop desk that he
bought from somebody, and there was so much noise I didn't quite catch
who he said, but I said, 'Ed, I must see that desk.' He was getting
ready to go to Florida for a few days.
Do you remember those years?
Oh, no, no. See, he died before I was born.
Right.
No, no. This would go back in the late 'teens and early '20s. I think he
bought Alma in 1914 and Myrtle in about 1920, something like that. He
decided that he would make more of the commercial grade furniture at
Alma and Myrtle would make more of the executive furniture, and so that
was the way that was carried on for a number of years until, as I
mentioned in another context, a little while ago. The point arrived in
marketing where you had to give the customer a complete line, not just
commercial, if you wanted to get the job. The customer wanted a single
source; executive, middle management, commercial. So Alma had to start
expanding to make a complete line for their customers; a single source.
Myrtle had to do the same thing; they had to go down. So the two firms—I
think I touched on this but digressed—became very competitive. My
brother Charles' idea was that you can go down—this is just an
analogy—but you can go down one side
Because you had to have two managements even though
Absolutely. And that's what I think I was in some context going to say to you, it was always important—we said something about who made the decision to make library furniture—but because of the competitiveness it was very important to keep the companies at sort of arms-length. There were other people until maybe—let's see, there were other people who had ownership in Myrtle Desk Company until it came to the point where it was the decision to buy out those other shareholders; but for awhile there were other shareholders. Charles felt it was extremely important that some shareholder couldn't say, 'Well, you own the company, most of the company, and you can read their mail. Therefore, you have an advantage.' So Charles felt very strongly about that for a long time.
That was probably a delicate road he had to hoe or to walk.
And he never, ever, to my knowledge—he was a very honorable businessman
and very successful businessman, and I don't think he ever, ever took
advantage of that situation.
This is before you were born?
Yeah. I'm old, but I'm not that old.
No, you're not old.
This was before you were born, but did any stories come down through your family about the foundings of Alma and Myrtle? I know they were founded before your father—your father didn't found them—but he did buy into them or buy them early on. Do you—were there any stories about why he decided to do this? Did he have any assistance in doing this? Did he have any partners? Were there any—I guess there weren't any local, state or federal agencies involved in the founding of these companies; that was really before—
It was before the government tried to tell you how to run your business.
That's right. Literally.
Literally. That's right, literally.
But, were there any stories about how he came upon these opportunities?
Yeah, I can tell you—what I know I'll be glad to tell you. I'm glad you
asked the question. As we've already stated, he had
established—founded—started Hayworth Roll and Panel Company, the first
and oldest plywood company in North Carolina, which happened to be
located—Grimes Street is right across from what was then the Alma
Furniture Company, which was owned and operated by Mr. J.P. Redding. He
did not have any sons or heirs. Ms. Alma Redding, for whom the company
was named, did not live to be an adult, I believe; I think—according to
my mother, she died at sort of a school age level, maybe fifteen or
sixteen. But anyway, that's where the name
This is Tom Wren?
No.
Manliff? Was it M—wasn't there a Tom?
Tom Wren, that's who it was. Now, there was another Wren who was Mr. M.J. Wren.
Well, they all called him Bud or something.
Exactly. Bud Wren. But this was the other one. He was very wealthy—they
both were—but I think he was maybe more so. And, long story short, he
raised my daddy's bid, and daddy wasn't rolling in money in those days
by any matter of means. He had a prosperous operation and he was making
money and all that, but he wasn't a multi-millionaire; wasn't anybody in
those days a millionaire, I'll say, but Mr. Wren probably was. So, daddy
came home and told mother that he didn't get the company because Mr.
Wren raised his bid, and mother said, 'You go
She had a strong idea that he should? I mean, she felt strongly enough about it?
Absolutely. He was definitely a visionary, and as years moved on before
his sudden death he—his philosophy of business, Dorothy, was to buy a
company and have somebody run it. You see, he didn't limit himself to,
'Well, I've got this company and this is it.' And that's exactly what he
did with Alma; I don't know exactly how long after he bought it, but he
pretty soon he hired a man whose name was D.R. Parker, David Rowe
Parker, to be the manager of Alma Desk Company. And I'm sorry I cannot
tell you exactly what Mr. Parker's background was, but obviously it was
in manufacturing or daddy wouldn't have hired him. And he was a good
manager. And down at Myrtle Desk Company he had a man whose name was Tom
Powell, which, of course, is a name that I'm sure you're familiar with.
And then at the time of his death he had a company called Arnold Lumber
Company, and he hired a man named Claude Cummings to run that company.
And he was heavily involved in a household furniture manufacturer over
in Burlington, and he just had his interests in all kinds of things. In
August of 1927—before he died in February of 1928 he loved the
mountains, and went to Blowing Rock a lot. There was a magnificent hotel
in Blowing Rock named Mayview Manor, and it had been built by a man from
Charlotte who had gotten into financial difficulties. It was sold at
auction, and in 1928 he bought it for $180,000; it inventoried for a
million.
That's one of the major things about a fine hotel is it's good service and friendly help.
Good service, and he believed in having the best chef you could hire to run the dining room—have food that everybody would want to come back for.
So your family continued to own this hotel.
Mother owned it.
Throughout the Depression?
Uh-hmm. She really did. And it was amazing—she was amazed too—but the season in those days was very short; the hotel opened the first week in June and closed the day after Labor Day, which is what?
Yeah. They didn't go to the mountains in the fall, the most beautiful
time, for some reason in those days. I don't know why. I guess people
maybe did, but not enough to keep a hotel that had over two hundred
rooms. It was huge, you know; just sort of went around the crest of the
mountain, on the side of the mountain. And St. John's Gorge and
Grandfather were in the distance. But she kept the hotel all during the
Depression, and always said, 'We never made any money but we never lost
any.' And I think that's incredible for those particular years. And one
of my daddy's very good friends—a very successful household furniture
manufacturer—was a man named Tom Broyhill, and his company was Broyhill
Furniture Industries in Lenoir. This man never went to school a day in
his life, but he went to work in a furniture plant in Lenoir and was
obviously very successful until he could buy his own company. He was the
youngest of I believe—I mean, correction—oldest of six children, and he
sent every one of his brothers and sisters to school; that included Ed
Broyhill who succeeded him. He was the youngest of six—Tom was the
oldest—and, of course, he greatly expanded Broyhill Furniture Industries
and was a legend unto himself. But his education came from his older
brother and I have never, ever read that in anything I've ever read
about Broyhill Furniture industries. One of Mr. Ed Broyhill's daughters
wrote a history of the company and sent me a copy because she knew of my
connection, you know, with Mr. Tom, not Mr. Ed, and there's
Yeah, and Ed's not by himself in that regard. But getting back to this,
Tom Broyhill and my father were very close friends and so he talked my
father into buying half of the hotel. So, anyway, mother sold her
interest to Mr. Tom Broyhill, I think it was in 1939, and the reason she
felt it was wise to do it was because the hotel really needed a lot of
renovation. They felt it was critical to put in a sprinkler system, and
there was a big lake at the foot of the mountain—where the little
village of Blowing Rock is—which the hotel owned, and that required that
they carry very heavy, expensive insurance in case of some child falling
in the lake and drowning. And bearing in the mind that the country was
just coming out of the Depression and money was not plentiful—I expect
she could well use the money—she sold her interest to Mr. Tom Broyhill.
So from the late '30s on we did not own the hotel, but we continued to
go up there and it existed for several years. It began—I tell you what
my daddy never would have done had he lived but mother and Mr. Tom
Broyhill did, because of it being in the depths of the Depression. This
may explain—no, this wouldn't explain why the hotel didn't lose
money—but anyway, all this vast amount of real estate the hotel sat on
my daddy would have built a golf course, which would have been
incredible. That was the original owner's plan, and they chose to sell
off the real estate for home sites so that a golf course was never
built. My daddy would have played golf. That's what took him up there in
the first place; they stayed at a hotel down in the
Oh, you were there when they were tearing it down?
It nearly broke my heart.
What date was that? Was that in the '50s?
Uh-hmm. And fortunately, there was an artist there whom I was not aware of—whom I did not know—that painted a picture of the hotel on the mountainside, like you were over on Grandfather looking back towards the hotel; painted this beautiful, magnificent water color. And he has an agent—the artist was from Raleigh, most of his work was in landscapes—I mean, seascapes—but he just happened to be in the mountains and this magnificent hotel had been torn down and he [said],'I'm going to paint this.'
Do you remember his name?
His name was Walter Kerr. I don't know whether he pronounced it Karr or
Kerr; you know, Governor Kerr, so I'm not sure and I don't know if
there's any connection. I never met the artist. I never knew him, but
his agent just happened to know of my interest in the hotel and he
said—he wrote me and said, 'I have something I know you're going to want
Do you have the painting?
Uh-hmm. I have it in my mountain house and it's beautiful.
Wonderful. How fortunate!
I have a photograph of the painting I'll show you sometime. So, that's a little side light.
But, you know, I thought, when I walked in that door I thought I was the cat's meow.
Oh, you were.
And I was running around, you know, mother would get me out of the rooms, so she—and in those days you dressed for dinner every night, and so she wanted to get me out of the room so she could dress; she'd send me to go down and talk to all the ladies, and so I'd go down and show off.
And be doted on.
I'd love to have a picture of myself, but anyway. It was a beautiful place, and it was an exciting part of my childhood. I loved it.
I can imagine. That's a lot of room to roam.
Yes, indeed. It surely was.
And such a beautiful setting.
Wonderful, big ballroom and they'd have a dance every
And did you get to?
Oh, yeah. You know, I thought that because my mother owned the hotel I could do anything. Well anyway, I remember always sitting there in the dining room.
When you went out to the hotel, did you and your mother go, and some of your other brothers and sisters go? Would all of you go as a family?
A lot of times they did, but they were older so they could drive their own cars. I just remember—well, many times Joseph went, but it seems like I can't quite remember Joseph as much as I went. As I told you, he went out to stay with his aunts on the farm a lot more than I ever did. But I have pictures, I have photographs of mother the summer after I was born in which I would have been about a year old. She's holding me and there's Margaret in the picture and all kind of family, whoever was up there, and you can see where the road is leading up to; at that time they were all dirt roads. It's changed a lot since those days. I'm not sure it's always for the better. But anyway, I think I've reminisced about that enough. But, you know, it means a lot to you, [so] you can't help talking about it. That's probably boring to anybody else.
No, it's pretty fascinating. I was going to ask you, do you remember how much your father paid for Alma? Do you remember that?
The figure that sticks in my mind, Dorothy—and this is going to blow your mind—is $14,000. But I expect that's about right because that's about all he could have afforded. Bear in mind that Alma Furniture Company bore absolutely no resemblance to anything like it was when we sold it. It was probably just two or three little buildings there, and that old lumber yard and a little siding for the railroad. That's about all that was there. A little machine room, you know, where the machines were to run the machines. And I think that there are some pictures around of the company, it looked like, back in those days.
It was a wooden factory building?
Oh yeah. Tin roof, sure. That's the way they all were in High Point. It was no different; that's the way things were built in those days. You know, there wasn't any great wealth in High Point like the Reynolds became in Winston, or the Hanes or the Cones in Greensboro. You know, they had built a beautiful place in Blowing Rock, Cone Manor which is still standing today. It's a visitor's center. A beautiful house; sort of a neo-classical style.
All of the earliest factories in High Point were wooden, weren't they?
Oh, yes.
Brick didn't really come in until the turn of the century.
Or later.
After 1900.
Really? Even getting on later.
uh-hmm.
As far as factories were concerned. Now, brick may have been used in—.
Not too many houses either. It was really the 'teens before brick—.
[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]
[START OF TAPE 2, SIDE A]
I'm with David Hayworth; this is Dorothy Gay Darr. This is two of two, tape number 2.6.97-DH. You were just talking about how much your father paid for Alma—
Well, what we were really talking about right as the tape stopped, Dorothy, was the fact that brick wasn't used much at that point in time, but I do remember—what I started to say but I'll just say this—I do remember one house which we talked about the other day, you and I did, was that old Armfield House on Broad Street. That was a brick structure, and that's the only one that I can remember that was. Now, you take the—there was a house there where Market Center Towers is now that was a stone house, and the Arthur Kirkman House is a brick house. And the Long's, Charles Long, who was the first manager of the Southern Furniture building when it was built in the '20s, he lived in a stone house there where the United Way building is right now. The stone walls are still there, and that was his home. And the reason that there were these stone houses built—and the old Quaker church which was at the corner of South Main and Commerce across from what was then originally the Commercial National Bank, I think that's a brick structure. I don't know exactly what year that was built, but that would have been somewhere in the '20s. That's when I think brick kind of—
Uh-hmm. And stone too.
Stone, sure.
Was in the '20s, wasn't it?
No, I believe it would have to have been earlier. There was a
Well, we've had such great eras in prosperity, you know. It
Oh yeah. Tremendous growth.
And then we had another era of prosperity in the '80s.
That's exactly right.
And then we centered around that furniture market.
Absolutely.
And that really anchored everything right there in that building.
Yes it did.
In downtown, and we just didn't move two or three blocks like a lot of others in our growth. Really staid.
Yeah, you're exactly right.
It's too bad, because we had, as our wealth grew, a lot of architecture to go along with it at the turn of the century.
Do you remember the Bud Wren house? I can remember that; it was a piano teacher, May Kirkman—who was a single woman—but she was one of the Kirkman's, old Kirkman families, her parents were. She taught piano for many, may years and she always had her recitals in that home. Mrs. Wren let her use that home for her recitals. I can remember going there—
Is that the one with the double columns all the way across?
Uh-hmm. And I want to say that was out of yellow brick, I believe. There
on Commerce. Dr. Stanton's house and the old Cox house; that was a
What did Alma make? You said Myrtle made roll-top desks; what did Alma make initially?
Dining room furniture.
Dining room furniture.
I would say probably of medium grade, not high style like you might think of a Chippendale dining room table. It wasn't anything like that.
And that was pretty representative of what kind of furniture was being made in High Point at that time?
Yes. I remember mother saying that Mr. Bud Wren, who was a successful furniture manufacturer, saying—I guess his company would have been Wren Columbia wouldn't it?—and he always said—I quote my mother—'Other people made furniture and he made money.' He probably made very cheap furniture, but he was very successful. And, you know, his widow—he never had any children—but his widow, Mrs. M.J. Wren took over the business after he died and she gave High Point College the Wren Library, which is a beautiful building. She always told mother that it really broke her to build that building. And of course, later she did go bankrupt, and it was really the talk of High Point when it came out in the headlines of the paper. 'Mrs. M.J. Wren files for bankruptcy.'
Was that after the Depression? When was that?
That was sometime in—I believe in the '40s.
When did she give that library, do you remember? Was that during the Depression?
No, I would say it was probably the late '30s or early '40s. And I don't know just what caused her to build that; I guess somebody out there probably said, 'We need a library and would you do this in memory of your husband?' And she did. It's a beautiful building; I was in it not too long ago, and the architectural detail of the interior is just as handsome as the exterior. I would love to know who the architect was, but he did a wonderful job. I'm sure you know—
I've only seen the building from the outside; I'm not as familiar with the inside. It's now the computer sciences building?
I'm not sure.
It's just to the right of the main administration building right there
off the
Yeah. It's what I call pure Georgian and very restrained, and very elegant in its simplicity. That would be my description of the building.
Do you want to talk about the next family member now? I think it's Charles, I guess we should start with Charles. He's such a—had such an essential role.
Well, I think we could talk about Charles and then maybe that would be a good place to end. And if we don't complete that we can always start over with Charles, because certainly a lot needs to be said about the role he played in turning the whole family companies, businesses into the largest office furniture manufacturer in the United States. Alma alone, not counting Myrtle, as I mentioned that to you the other day.
David, do you feel like since we've been talking about the early
beginnings of the company in the '20s and '30s and '40s, do you feel
like perhaps talking about your
Whatever you say. I'll be guided by your—
Well, we were going to talk about—
I guess if you're going to talk about sort of the family history she
should come before Charles. Chronologically he's the next child, but I
don't think that's significant.
END OF INTERVIEW